This post concerns an ongoing point of contention over at Deacon Duncan's blog. Originally drafted as a comment to this post, I decided it was probably too potentially incendiary, and I certainly don't want to stir up more of the crap over there that I'm speaking against here. Still, a catharsis needs to cathars, and this one's been sitting at about 9.5 centimeters for quite a while. It was time to push.
Duncan: First of all, my comments here are not meant as a criticism of your intent, nor am I questioning your right to manage your blog in whatever way you see fit. I appreciate most of the content here, including much of that with which I vehemently disagree. We learn. We sharpen our skills, and our arguments. Hell, sometimes we even change our minds! However, regarding the subject who’s obviously at the center of this tempest-in-a-teapot, I have a few thoughts.
This perambulatory ‘conversation’ (and yes, I use the term loosely) concerning miracles, their nature, verification and the like, has been going on for, what, 3 months? My take is that it still resides, languishing, at square one, and will remain there interminably. I predicted this would be the case from early on. That’s why I dropped out, though I came back a couple times to take some shots born mainly out of sheer frustration...and maybe a naive hopefulness aimed at getting the train back on the tracks (if it ever was). My foible, I suppose. Still, I believe time has shown I’m not the only one who sees this whole thing as an epistemological black hole from which no light will ever emerge; at least, as far as any real headway regarding the content of the conversation is concerned. You’re probably right that there’s some peripheral benefit derived from the sparks at the event horizon, to extend my analogy. But I’m not so sure those gains balance out the sense of utter futility I think many commenters have concerning this seemingly endless, circular discussion.
You’ve said that you discourage discussion about motives, but I wonder...can a clean break always be made between the comment, and the one who makes the comment? I’m not suggesting that we should be overly disparaging or cruel, but there’s bound to be some spillover from time to time, if you know what I mean. For instance, when I accuse someone of speaking in bad faith, or of being a sophist, these are opinions derived from what I like to think is a careful analysis of what he’s said. When someone constantly misleads, misdirects, changes implicit meanings through semantic wrangling, moves goal posts, hijacks every position onto an epistemological merry-go-round, and simply glosses over every point that he can’t wiggle out of, what’s one to say? Nothing? Of course one can just shrug it off, and continue to reiterate, and reiterate, and reiterate...but when does turning the other cheek become just getting slapped around? Eventually, it’s natural that people are going to get pissed off. Somebody once said they wished they could argue with a computer, the computer being less prone to emotional argumentation, more rational, yada yada yada. In this case, I’m afraid said computer might be forced to use it’s automatic cd-rom eject for other than specified purposes.
Lastly, it’s plain that the commenter I’m speaking of has a history of derailing conversations, and of instigating the sort of behavior you’ve felt a need to speak out against today. Now, I have no problem with verbal fisticuffs, nor of ideas that shake up the status quo. There’s also a certain benefit in being exposed to such elementary apologetical tactics, I guess. But what I see here is contention for contention’s sake, and it seems like the law of diminishing returns becomes applicable at SOME point, doesn't it? I haven’t addressed the guy in a couple months, I think, and he’s STILL disparaging myself and others in absentia over at his own blog. Of course, he has every right to do so, but I think these actions are indicative of his character and motivations. He once accused me of having a conflict fetish, or something along those lines. What might be an accurate psychological diagnosis based upon his own modus operandi, not to mention his self-aggrandizing temper tantrums (amusing though they sometimes are)? Narcissistic Martyr Complex, perhaps? I ask you in all sincerity, must such a personality be indulged forever?
This will be my only (rather long, admittedly) comment on the matter. Offered in the spirit of fairness, and nothing more.
I have followed over from Evangelical Realism, thanks for the link to your blog.
ReplyDeleteI too have more to say, and I too am trying to be a polite blog guest by not putting more fuel on the fire.
But still, I can't help feel that honest, to the point comments have now been stifled. I do not enjoy having threads I and others have put a lot work into disrupted, and must now evaluate if it is worth the effort. I can't help but feel the ER blog will suffer if the comment sections are infested with trolls.
Oh well, think I will go read your comments on the odious Vox Day...
Welcome, R. Moore. I just want to make it perfectly clear that my intention is NOT to cause any disruptions. ER is one of my favorite anti-apologetics blogs, rich with content and great, intelligent commenters in the main. I'm not even suggesting that the Deacon should change his format or policies IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER. Just a grouse on my part, I'm afraid; I hate trolls, as well as the damage I've seen them do on many, many sites. I suppose they'd eventually go away if they were to be completely ignored, but that's a tough one when they interrupt the flow of conversation with their tactics again and again. I'm no saint.
ReplyDeleteAnyhow, hope you enjoy the place. Feel free to nose around. Actually, this is sort of a side interest to me...I have other writing concerns that take up most of my time. But I like to keep a hand in, and this blog is a great receptacle for my occasional ventings...LOLOL! Take care, jim
Hi Jim --
ReplyDeleteHave you left the ER blog permanently? I still visit, but have given up any thought of posting comments, considering the toxic environment.
I did notice cl posted a link to his own, blog, so I followed out of curiosity. In an attempt to emulate DD, he reviews Atheist Universe. I found the following there which pretty much sums up cl:
"Friends, that conclusion is patently false. Let one person challenge the point and I'll gladly provide the evidence."
I can't abide someone whose whole approach to debate is the simply sneer at the arguments of others without presenting their own. I assume if someone bothers to read his blog, and challenges his point, they will be met with a laundry list of insults, and arguments from authority, and a steadfast refusal ever supply a single, concise, concrete example.
It is really a shame, I thought the discussions at ER were very good. DD must make a decision on policing his site or not ... serious commenters will not tolerate trolls for very long.
Good Luck.
Hiya, R. Moore!
ReplyDeleteI've decided not to post over there anymore, for all the obvious reasons. But like you, I still read the Duncan's articles. I guess you could say that I'm policing myself...LOL! No great loss for either side, I suppose.
I know what you mean about the rest, and I agree. These sort of people are an insult to reasonable discourse. Of course, where one comes down on the issue is going to be based on how one interprets freedom of speech, I suppose. In my opinion, the troll crossed the line a long time ago. But, hey! That's my opinion, and it's not my blog.
The troll's approach, btw, seems to be the current tactic from the internet apologetics crowd. It's like trying to dialogue with a junkyard dog. But, I have to admit that such obsessive fisking DOES take a lot of commitment; more than I'm willing to invest in a blog's comment section, anyway. Just as well. If there was ever an exercise in futility, talking with that guy is it. He seems perfectly willing to run a circular argument into hundreds of comments, until everybody else runs out of steam and he's the last one left standing. A victory by attrition seems pretty hollow to me, but I guess it gets his rocks off. Oh well.
Anyway, maybe now I'll have some creative energy to do a few new articles here between my other writing stuff. Which suits me fine! Take care, R. Moore, and I hope our paths cross from time to time here in cyberspace. It's nice talking with you...jim